Why does everyone get so mad at l4d2?

[Homfry]

I don't really get why a lot of people are up in arms about l4d2 and l4d1.

l4d 2 has the following improvements

New modes
New weapons
New characters
New location
New campaigns
New weapon categories
New Items
New enemies
New AI
New Game mechanics
New Effects
New Graphics

One could draw the analogy to other games. For example if anyone ever played starcraft or warcraft or any other RTS, you would notice that the only difference between warcraft III and it's expansion is

A few new units
Maybe some new heroes
New campaign

There is the same thing with D2 and it's expansion.

A few new classes
A new ACT
Some new items

Also these expansions are full priced games.

There seems to be some sort of double standard.

If they made an "expansion" to l4d and called it l4d2 and added everything. It would be normal by various standards.

However, an expansion could be worse. They typically force you to by the old game to play the expansion.

The argument that there is not enough content to justify a full new game, I find a little silly because it you look at other(obviously not all) previous games with an expansion or sequel you will notice that the new game is probably quite similar to the old one. However, it has new graphics and new story etc. but not in a quantity that is arguably greater then l4d2.

Now one could argue that they promised updates for l4d and l4d should have gone the way of tf2. With free updates. However, be careful what you wish for.

Free = little money = can't pay for much work = not much work gets done

We all know that tf2 is great and the updates that have been done are great. However, that game has been out 2 years and it still doesn't have solly, demo, and engineer update. There still isn't the meet the pyro or meet the medic. Also most of the new maps are community generated. Updates are very slow. If l4d1 went the way of tf2 you wouldn't see any updates to this (l4d2)magnitude(the sum of all updates) for a long time or maybe even ever.

I will concede that l4d2 can somewhat fracture the l4d community (especially with everyone getting so worked up about it). I would have probably preferred to to be an "expansion" that would meld the two games together, but the full price would still be justified historically and in terms of the (paid)good and fast work for content idea.

I like free stuff as much as anyone, but it is not like value are gazillionaires who molest everyone for money while doing no work.

[Brains]

http://kotaku.com/5398254/valve-left-4-dead-2-pre+orders-4-times-the-1st

Not sure....maybe it's just the loud minority of people just complaining EVERYwhere online and making it seem like lots of people are mad at it. I personally think 2 is WAY better than 1. I know L4D2 is more widely known too, much like how Guitar Hero 1 was okay but it wasn't until GH2 came out that the guitar playing game craze shot up....maybe L4D2 will have the same effect...and all the DLC will be for L4D2 in the future, instead of just making a new game.

[Fenrir]

Personally, I'm extremely excited.
I think a little bit of it is due to a growing sense of entitlement among gamers.
We want games to be exactly the way we define them, and everyone has their own idea of what a game should be. This bleeds over into expectations about releases (omg why isn't Bioshock 2 out yet etc etc) and how those 'should' be done. Especially with Valve's history/promises of patching in extra content for free, a lot of people have very high expectations/demands of game companies nowadays.
What I wish more people remembered was that gamers are not developers, and there are a lot of factors that we don't even recognize in their decision. My impression was that this was a complete overhaul of the game engine to introduce all the new changes (variable levels, better director AI, weapon types, game modes, etc), and wasn't really deserving of a patch.
Plus, this is still a very new IP. I'd rather see it keep growing and evolve rapidly to be bigger and better, than suffer from lack of support and die of stagnation, even if that comes at a cost.

[Christian]

Since I am the token angry guy I will give you my reasons for being upset.

1. (and this is the biggest) They pulled developer resources away from TF2, HL2: Episode 3, and L4D to make L4D2 leaving those games with fewer developer resources needed to release or improve the games that are already on the docket.

2. They haven't fixed the bugs in L4D that have been out since the demo, so instead they will release another version with new bugs.

3. The game was short with limited replayability. The AI Director was touted as making gameplay unique but I genuinely believe that they had to de-ball him before release because of bugs or another reason. They didn't make up for this limited replayability with extra maps or even new modes (soon enough). By the time the big updates came out many had already shyed away from the game.

4. It gives PC game makers a window to think they can screw over their user base like console players (MW2 anyone...). Once this trend starts its going to get bad fast.

That all being said I can understand their need to release L4D2. I'm willing to bet that L4D was coded like crap making it nearly unmaintainable which would make a good case for a remake rather than DLC. Valve is going to need money to keep things going since this is about the only money maker they have that hasn't been "about to release" for 3 years (HL2:Ep3).

Here's what they can do to make me happy. Fix the freaking bugs in the first game. Release one more minor campaign. Make a promise to maintain L4D2 that actually holds water (unlike L4D).

[Pineapple!]

Considering the amount of time I have sunk into TF2, L4D, CS:S spending a mear 50 bucks on L4D2 is nothing...If a game can guarentee atleast 50 hours of gameplay it far outshines almost all new available games. Valve has always provided excellent mods and allowed for strong cutimization where possible. Dedicated servers (MW2 fail), and if you don't mind waiting a month the game will go on sale.

2.50 TF2 anyone. Name any other company that does something like that.

And if you can't afford 25-50 bucks get a job:P. Fuck, rake your neighboors lawn for 25 bucks if yea have to. lol

[Mechagodzilla]

Too many black people.

[Brains]

Too many black people.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: times fucking infinity....

[Mechagodzilla]

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: times fucking infinity....

I was joking man.

[Chillnburn1]

I'm upset with l4d2, Or l4d in that matter because Personally it has been simply put a game on mindless shooting, trying to get to one point. Not only that, The levels are very narrow. With other zombie games, there were either wide open areas where you use the environment to your advantage. Or that your in a closed up big building were like a rat trying to get out of a maze. With l4d, IT had a basic idea of both. And i do like that. Also I feel that the horde was a brilliant idea, but being presented with a table full of weapons is another thing. If I was making the game, I would start the players with a pistol with low ammo and a knife. Hell not even Just use your own fist till you find something around the level. Not on in a specific area. Simply put, A bigger level area, no weapons at start point, and weapons and equipment spread out. It helps the random spawn engine to good use. Also a back story animation to all the characters, yeah that be nice.

[Cosmic_Shame]

ok so here, how about u add all that shit in the first game, and add in all 4 players. Then u have the choice of being the original or the new characters, u get to use the old weapons, new weapons, new maps, or everything else. Valve is fucking retarded. Release a game but allow you to use the original shit with the new one how fucking hard is that. THen they coulda used the same game engine as the old one and expanded on it, there retarded im sorry. THey coulda still charged 50 dollars for it but allow it to tie in with the original game. I dont get it.

It would be like if they release another TF2 and saying that, Alright were gonna use the same shit as the first one except were gonna change the appearance of all the characters, the Demo man will have 2 eyes the heavy will be a skinny guy and the medic will polish instead of German, were gonna add a new game mode where u fly around with jet packs and enable grenades. The new taunt will be that the heavy can poop out explosive diarrea and blow up sentry guns, the sentry guns will have a 5th upgrade to them where there on wheels, WHEEEE. The maps will be different but use the same fences, a small changes to buildings and use the same bridges as the first one ITS FUCKING RETARDED!!!!!!!!!!!

im sure 90% of you would be pissed off if tomorrow Valve said hey were coming out with TF3 and where not gonna worry about the soldier, engi, and demo updates, But u know what if u preorder this game, ull get a free hat in on the release of TF3. But u know well throw in another valve made TF2 map and thats about it, but were busy now cuz were working on Left 4 Dead 3 and TF3

[Christian]

Cosmic_Shame just summed up my anger in a very elaborate angry person post, I approve.

[Pineapple!]

I definately agree that it would be nice if L4D 1 maps were transerfered over and with any luck they will release it in a patch once the new Ai and stuff is changed to match L4D2.

But considering its length I would venture that it is much more worthy of my 50 bucks then Modern Warefare 2. But then again maybe thats becuase im not a fan of games where pray and pray is how you get kills.

WTB new CS

[Cosmic_Shame]

im glad 2 people agree with me sort of

[Kurt Erickson]

I can see why people are getting angry, the girl in the game looks like the singer/song writer "Lil' Mama". :D

[nAtr0n]

The only note I have to add is one that I'm sure you all know. You can thank the xbox 360 for this update as the console is the only thing driving it or it would have been released in a Tf2 slow small update fashion.

[Christian]

The only note I have to add is one that I'm sure you all know. You can thank the xbox 360 for this update as the console is the only thing driving it or it would have been released in a Tf2 slow small update fashion.

I agree that the console drove this one. I think L4D2 is warranted but what I would have appreciated from Valve is them being candid: "we have no intention of updating L4D anymore here's $15 off L4D2, thank you suckers."

At least I can pay $35 for my update and get a lot more content.

[nAtr0n]

That is actually a great idea if you own 1 you get it for less even alot less

[Christian]

That is actually a great idea if you own 1 you get it for less even alot less

That's what the original boycott was about, just getting the DLC that was promised. If they're not going to give it just say that and give the discount on L4D2 for those that purchased L4D, everyone wins (even though L4D purchasers lose a little).

[Cosmic_Shame]

DLC is cancer for any game that is created

[Christian]

DLC is cancer for any game that is created

Yes but you and I know that making a promise of DLC is cheaper than delaying the game for a full release.

[Cosmic_Shame]

Yes but you and I know that making a promise of DLC is cheaper than delaying the game for a full release.

yeah and its stealing money from you. Cuz their DLC will be 30 dollars for 2 maps and 1 more weapon, i dunno its cancer. I bought a game called Crash Commando for the PS3 game was awesome, then DLC was released, the game costed me 10 dollars the DLC was 10 dollars and i was not getting another game i was getting a new map and the choice of choosing a different character skin, DLC IS CANCER TO ALL GAMES!!!!!!

[Mechagodzilla]

Video Game companies are losing respect for the people they sell their games to. It seems now all video game companies care about is making money. They keep making more peripherals, useless crap, and more and more of the exact same game because they know it will keep making them money. That's why Halo and Call of Duty still sell so well, because most of it's fanbase keep eating up the same shit, because they know their precious Microsoft or whatever will NEVER try something new and innovative and still pay 50 - 60 bucks for the exact same thing over and over again. VG Companies are nothing more than money grubbing, heartless zombies who literally just want money. It's happening to Nintendo, Sony, and hell. Microsoft has always been this way. Even the smaller companies are doing it, like Capcom. I think we just have to live with it, and who knows. I might still be playing Team Fortress 2 10 years from now. I still play my effing NES, back when video games were made for the fans, to be entertaining, on not the enterprise used to make them rich.

[Cosmic_Shame]

yeah and according to Valve at the moment as of 12:13 central time USA they still have not released L4D2 and it was supposed to be out at 11 central. Good job valve

[Brains]

yeah and according to Valve at the moment as of 12:13 central time USA they still have not released L4D2 and it was supposed to be out at 11 central. Good job valve

but valve time is different than normal time ;)
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

we'll get it soon enough.

[Christian]

To let you know I did download and play the L4D2 demo and I have a review. As a game it was vastly improved over the original. The things that drove me insane: nearly identical weapons with no noticeable difference, inability to quickly fire pistols, YOU STILL STOP WHEN GETTING HIT FROM BEHIND!, and the awful southern speak (I've been to the south, family from the south and it is some of the worst voice acting ever).

The menu was so awful that it should be burned and forgotten. I spent 30 minutes trying to make it so I couldn't hear my microphone sound through my headset. Turns out Valve was editing my system sound so much that I had to open my config and set a value while the game was running to get this problem to go away. This is a serious fail.
The other thing that drove me nuts is I still don't have the ability to set a maximum ping for a server so we got stuck in some Spanish server in the middle of the largest porn dump ever (no one was under 250 ping).

[Cosmic_Shame]

but valve time is different than normal time ;)
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time

we'll get it soon enough.

an that makes sense now. They run on the same kind of time that EA and Dice use for Battlefield games, i get it now. When a game is supposed to come out in the fall that really means next summer, i get it

[Brains]

an that makes sense now. They run on the same kind of time that EA and Dice use for Battlefield games, i get it now. When a game is supposed to come out in the fall that really means next summer, i get it

yup.
also, blizzard doesn't actually even go by any known time scale. they say "it's done when it's done". so you better watch out if a blizzard dev ever DOES give you a time period. means the world is going to end. blizzard devs are crazy!

[Intercept]

I don't really get why a lot of people are up in arms about l4d2 and l4d1.

l4d 2 has the following improvements

New modes
New weapons
New characters
New location
New campaigns
New weapon categories
New Items
New enemies
New AI
New Game mechanics
New Effects
New Graphics

One could draw the analogy to other games. For example if anyone ever played starcraft or warcraft or any other RTS, you would notice that the only difference between warcraft III and it's expansion is

A few new units
Maybe some new heroes
New campaign

There is the same thing with D2 and it's expansion.

A few new classes
A new ACT
Some new items

Also these expansions are full priced games.

There seems to be some sort of double standard.

If they made an "expansion" to l4d and called it l4d2 and added everything. It would be normal by various standards.

However, an expansion could be worse. They typically force you to by the old game to play the expansion.

The argument that there is not enough content to justify a full new game, I find a little silly because it you look at other(obviously not all) previous games with an expansion or sequel you will notice that the new game is probably quite similar to the old one. However, it has new graphics and new story etc. but not in a quantity that is arguably greater then l4d2.

Now one could argue that they promised updates for l4d and l4d should have gone the way of tf2. With free updates. However, be careful what you wish for.

Free = little money = can't pay for much work = not much work gets done

We all know that tf2 is great and the updates that have been done are great. However, that game has been out 2 years and it still doesn't have solly, demo, and engineer update. There still isn't the meet the pyro or meet the medic. Also most of the new maps are community generated. Updates are very slow. If l4d1 went the way of tf2 you wouldn't see any updates to this (l4d2)magnitude(the sum of all updates) for a long time or maybe even ever.

I will concede that l4d2 can somewhat fracture the l4d community (especially with everyone getting so worked up about it). I would have probably preferred to to be an "expansion" that would meld the two games together, but the full price would still be justified historically and in terms of the (paid)good and fast work for content idea.

I like free stuff as much as anyone, but it is not like value are gazillionaires who molest everyone for money while doing no work.


Because Valve went directly against their word.

http://www.videogamer.com/news/valve_details_post_left_4_dead_launch_plans.html


One of the things that we're doing is we seem to be in a transition between games as a package product and games more of a service. So if you look at Team Fortress 2, one of things that's really helped grow the community is the continuous updates, where we release new maps, new character classes, new unlockables, new weapons. And we tell the stories about the characters, like the meet the sniper, or meet the sandwich. And that ongoing delivery of content really seems to grow the community....

.... So we'll do the same thing with Left 4 Dead where we'll have the initial release and then we'll release more movies, more characters, more weapons, unlockables, achievements, because that's the way you continue to grow a community over time.

It didn't happen. Valve made a new game out of it and made L4D2 instead.